Maria! I just read Girl Meets God, like, four days ago. I find that amazing. (I am such a simpleton.) A friend told me about GMG and then let me borrow it. I'd been wondering if she'd written anything else, and got online to find out. Now I know.

I really do think your post (and Lauren's new book) came at the right time for me.

[Candid talk about sex will begin in a mintue. You have been forewarned.]

My biggest struggle, and, yes, I am a girl, is with sexual thoughts and feelings. I feel, in a way, like I'm alone in this. Girls, so we're told, don't really struggle with sexual feelings, guys do. It's a guy thing. Well I've struggled with it for years.

My body may be clean, but my mind and soul are sullied. Yes, I've had impure thoughts, I've wondered what sex will be like, I've imagined the act, people, on more than one occasion! I'm terribly, terribly ashamed. And my shame causes me to turn away from God.

God, I think, how can you possibly love me? How can you, each time I hope to walk purely again and turn back to you, accept me? How can you witness me turn away from you, each time I sin, and still embrace me when I call out to you?

I can tell you from experience that sexual behavior most certainly forms habits and expectations.

I look forward to reading what others post.

I thought I should add....

I've no problem with celibacy. I can assure you that I'm in no danger of losing my virginity before marriage. Physically I haven't any trouble, but mentally...well, mentally is another area all together. I think this is because I feel that, until now, no one has ever known my thoughts. If I think about sex no one (except for Him) will ever know. I'll still be a good Christian girl because I haven't been physically involved.

I believe that our minds are in far greater danger than our bodies.

all i can say is that it's a load of crap that only men struggle with sexual thoughts because they're more sexual beings or whatever is espoused by the status quo.

"I believe that our minds are in far greater danger than our bodies."

how true.

i haven't read either of these books, but they sound very interesting.

christians discussing sex. hmm. all i've ever heard is "not married? then don't."

the older i get, the harder it becomes to keep my mind clear of thoughts about sex. which is odd. i think i would have expected it to get easier. less interesting. less of an issue. just know, angie, you are not alone in that.

i think it's crazy talk -- and i am a huge nay-sayer when it comes to gender generalizations -- to say that men struggle with sex more than women. it's one of the many gender stereotypes that drive me insane.

we are human -- men and women alike -- and, as such, we sin. we have been given free will in our minds and our bodies. this does not give us license to sin, but it is a great consolation for me to know that, when i falter, god is not going to turn his back on me. he won't be pleased, but he will still forgive me and love me. that is the beauty of his grace.

the most interesting thing for me in this post is the suggestion that married couples practice chastity. can anyone shed some light on that for me? or perhaps i can just buy the book!

oh yeah, & i can remember being 15 and having my youth pastors (who were newly married & only about my age now, mid-twenties, btw) tell us that if you so much as kissed or thought about a member of the opposite sex before marriage you were committing adultery. they then proceeded to tell us how incredibly amazing the sex was inside the bonds of marriage.
ah, ron & barb, wherever you are, that was just kinda creepy.

lol. that's hysterical. i had a dufus of a hi-league counselor tell us that if you're going to be kissing, never sit or lay down. only stand up.

'cause no one's ever had sex standing up?

;)

OMG. amo, you're awesome.

so much to say, so little time. i'm loving the candid input here, please keep it rolling. i'll add thoughts later tonight.

yep, amo rocks the casbah alright.

i wonder what your counselor would've had to say about a smooch in the car. technically that's sittingn down, but i think the fact that my long hair almost always got stuck in the seatbelt was quite the preventative measure for anything too untoward occurring.
(good thing i'm not kissing anyone in cars now that my hair is short.)

angie - your post resonates with me. know, always, that YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS. the theater of my mind is, by all accounts, a very shocking place to be. though i've not been in a place where the physical has been tempted [as faithful readers and close friends know], i wonder, often, how i would respond in such a situation. if the mental aspect is any indication, i only imagine i would be in quite a bit of trouble.

and the whole it's-worse-for-guys thing... i deeply believe that argument is a pile of horseshit. to quote a wise source: "...like anyone can even know that!" the majority of information regarding struggling with sexual thoughts, pornography, lust, etc. is aimed almost EXCLUSIVELY at men. this creates several problems in my mind: first of all, it creates a sort of expectation for men to be horny as hell, and so therefore, this struggle is seen as normal and acceptable -- a "man's issue". on the flipside, this lack of focus on women creates an illusion that women never think about sex, and so therefore, for a woman to have this struggle is shameful and wrong. how many speakers have you heard that have said something along the lines of, "now, i know you men in the audience struggle with this, and this talk is for you..."? i've heard it [or something along the lines of it] more times than i care to remember. and each time, i remember shrinking a little bit inside, thinking i must certainly be the most impure christian woman on the planet.

of course, the older i've gotten, the more ridiculous i know all of that to be. the question is, how long will it take for the rest of society to realize this?

the other question is, what the heck were ron & barb thinking?!

Christianity and sex... yea, it's strange Christians don't talk about it more. It seems the dominate voice in the Christian culture is more like ron and barb... "sex is bad, sex is dirty, save it for the one you love!" So mdog dares us to talk about sex... is the christian blog version of truth or dare?

I don't know the gender of the above posts, but I DO think it's different for men and for women. This is not to say that women don't think about sex or struggle with sexual issues (in fact, reading your posts was helpful to me in that I'm one of those men who might say be tempted to talk just to men on this subject.) We can't get in each other heads, but I still think it's different for men and women (this is coming from someone who has never, in fact, been a woman).

Funny, I was just talking with some friends about this tonight. I have a friend who is a pastor in a college town and is going to be preaching on sex in a several weeks. And I know he reads this blog...so if you write some good stuff it may appear in a sermon! In fact, Christians need to talk about sex and all the issues surrounding it (how far is too far, oral sex, masturbation, etc). The only voices we hear are from the culture. But I think there is a fear that if we talk about it, it somehow pushes people toward it. And it is uncomfortable for some to hear someone talk about sex. (In fact, I was actually going to do a post about masturbation, but thought that may be pushing it.) Part of it is it is hard for Christian men to talk about sex around women...and I imagine the reverse is true (esp with issue like the above topic.)

The funny thing is (I'm guessing all the above posts are from single people) issues of sex and sexual frustration don't automatically end with marriage. Many married people still deal with issues of lust, pornography, etc... and in fact if people bring these "struggles" into marriage, marriage is not an automatic fix. (If, as a single person, you let your mind or eyes wander to whatever you desire, that mind doesn't automatically change because you have a ring on your finger.) So singleness can be an excellent training ground for maturity and self control in marriage (if that comes).

I could blab on about this forever...but alas, I will shut up and find out what others think.

Hmmm...not sure if anyone else that posted here is married or not. Regardless, I'll talk about my experience with sex as a married person who was once single.

Ron and Barb were trying to do their best to say sex IS better when done in the context of marriage because:

1) you can do it without guilt
2) you can do it all the time, whenever you want, wherever you want (um, not in public, thanks)
3) and if you've waited, you won't ever play comparison games

Now, ready for the candid stuff?...that doesn't mean sex is easy or always pleasurable for both people every time. Hey. DOn't believe those movies! Sometimes, you just do it to be close and the fireworks don't go off in your head. (But sometimes they do...and BOY HOWDY....)

And, sex isn't this "do it and then go about your life" ting. It's a mess (again, thanks movies for the misconception THERE). C'mon, I mean....THINK about what sex involves.

OK..Maria...candid enough? LOL. Hope people aren't grossed out/offended. You dared me. I'm game. Heck, I've had two babies. NOthing's beyond talking about now. Perfect strangers will ask, "Did you have a vaginal delivery? (read: did that baby come out of your vagina? yes, I'm talking to you about your vagina).

I thought it'd be good to have some male input on the topic, which is a great topic to discuss. Maria, I hate wasting your bandwidth because I could go on forever talking about this, so I'll try to keep this as short as I can.

First of all, there is science to the "it's harder for men" argument. Testosterone is so much more abundant in males than females... it drives our sexual thoughts and acts. Just a side note: testosterone levels are higher in the morning hours... guys get "morning wood"... you do the math. (I hope someone laughed at that).

Here's a little bit about me. I'm 25 years old, I'll have the title of "doctor" in 7 months, I played collegiate lacrosse for 4 years, I race mountain bikes in the summer, some consider me as good looking (I suppose), and I'm still a virgin. Why? It's simple, yet complicated. The woman I choose to marry has to understand this. She will need to understand the temptation I have gone through for all those years... the empty feelings of the flesh that are taken so lightly by many... the times I said "no" for her. FOR her. It's a way of giving myself completely to her. Giving her something I haven't given anyone before. I'm a hopeless romantic and I can't think of anything more special than to give her that and keep that promise to her. Promises are huge for me. I'm a realistic person. I realize my chances of marrying a virgin are slim... it's just the way it is. So that might make me think if that's the case, why not lose my virginity? My thought is this: what if I lose my virginity and find the ONE, and she's a virgin? I'd feel like the world's biggest piece of crap because she saved herself for ME, and I couldn't give that back to her. I'd be haunted by the thought of her always thinking I'd be comparing her to the one (or others) before. Sorry, I just can't do that. Believe me, there have been times where it would have been so easy, even the other week... I just can't do it. It's just as hard at 25 as it was at 18. I'm not incredibly open about my virginity or my reasons for it... it's personal to me and it's who I am. I know what kind of man I want to be. I know what kind of husband and father I want to be. I want to be a man of character and I strive towards that every day by the grace of God.

Those are a few of my thoughts on the matter.

val - hilarious. and, anyone that's grossed out or offended isn't exactly chained to their computer or anything. at least, i hope not...

paul - i definitely think there's the fear that talking about sex will somehow push people toward it. but like you said, we're getting messages about sex every single day from our culture: so you'd think it would make sense to WANT to talk about it openly from a biblical perspective. but unfortunately... the american christian way is to say "don't, it's bad!" and then sweep it under the rug and never talk about it ever again... what?!

i'm glad that everyone has picked up the gauntlet i've thrown down. keep it going... post what you like. i reserve the right to censor, but i highly doubt i'll have to exercise it.

i just can't WAIT to see the sorts of google searches unleashed will be getting!

steve - i've got enough bandwidth to go around. and btw: i DID laugh. :D

Sometimes this issue feels like something we take way too seriously as Christians. Like, talking about it so much makes Christians into these fearful, obsessive sticks in the mud who are afraid someone is going to say the word SEX or some woman is going to reveal her scandelous ANKLE in public. It makes us seem so weird and boring and afraid. But then other times, it seems like no one cares anymore and everyone is just having sex and really what's the point in worrying about it. That seems scary and wrong too. I like this dialogue. It's good. I don't know if this is true for everyone or just women or anyone but me...but my temptations almost always come more in the form of wanting to be close to someone and feel accepted in an intimate way by them. There is definitely no feeling in the world more tempting to me than that. It's the most content and happy I've ever felt. More than money and power and accomplishment. Yup, more than when I pray or "fellowship" or do something nice for someone. Indeed, it is a fleeting feeling that doesn't actually completely satisfy anything...but it's so fullfilling in the moment. That is what I feel tempted by and that almost always comes with the clothes being tossed on the floor, so to speak.

I give this discussion two thumbs up.

My friends and I do talk about sex, I think almost deliberately in a reaction against the Christian culture. However, even in our open group, many of them have said things like, "I didn't even know women could masturbate until that Seinfeld episode!" Whatever. I never really suffered from those delusions, I'm not sure why.

The most priceless thing about the whole "true love waits" movement is that they solely focus on young teenagers who are waiting to have sex and on young couples (20ish) who are just so unbelievably glad they've waited and can't even keep their joy in! Yeah, I've known a few Rons and Barbs in my time. A recent article I read on the movement used some kid as their poster boy. He'd made a pledge when he was 16 and was now getting married at 22 or so. You paragon of virtue! You waited 6 whole years?!?!?! They avoid telling you that you might not get married right away--if at all--and that you may be quite lonely and miserable in between. After all, if people knew that, they'd probably skip the whole virginity thing anyway.

Not saying, of course, that married people can't be miserable and lonely. In fact, I know a lot of miserable married Christians, most of whom got married waaaay too young because they were having what I like to affectionately call "penis emergency" (term can apply to both sexes..."vagina emergency" doesn't have the same ring to it). But of course, the church will be there to support them in their marital struggles. You single people? Please go quarantine yourselves in our singles group and pretend like sex doesn't exist, 'k?

It all harkens back to the differing levels of tolerance Christians have for different sins. Premarital sex is way down there, so we better not ever even talk about it in a way that we might admit it actually exists, lest we "give the devil a foothold" (heard that scripture misappropriated so many times). And ditto the hierarchy with the whole "how far is too far" bit. My little Christian college actually codified the "only kiss standing up" thing. If you were caught in a room together and you both didn't have at least one limb each on the floor, you could get fined. Again, whatever.

So maybe technically we're teaching people to obey the letter of the law...but what about the spirit? Does all this really give anyone--married or single--a more sacred view of sex and life?

lemonscarlet - thanks for your thoughts. it certainly seems christians take sex too seriously... or maybe just too scandalously. serious isn't bad, really; but i think secretive is.

meegs - love the "penis emergency" bit. and i think your last paragraph is spot on. these are the sorts of questions we should be asking, aren't they?

btw, i just have to say that this conversation is most certainly making me think about sex all the time now.

but in a good, healthy, and constructive way.

YES... this is what i'm going for here.

Lemonscarlet, my temptation stems from wanting to feel desirable and beautiful. Isn't that just a shame? I ought to feel beautiful because I am the daughter of a king, and yet, I still desire the reassurance of a man. Terrible!

Maria, you're right. I said I'm in no danger of losing my virginity, but because I've never, thank goodness, been in a situation where the physical has beeen tempted. Who's to say I wouldn't jump the bones of a man I was attracted to.

It's one thing to be a virgin either because it just worked out that way, or because you've been a "well behaved" beleiver since you could read. But for those of us who were hormone-gushing, rebellious, irresponsible teenagers before Jesus came into our hearts....the "struggle" is interesting...because by not having sex, you're technically not "saving" anything. It's already gone. For a long time, I thought it was generally viewed as pretty admirable to have "quit" having sex due to becoming a believer, and I thought "won't my future husband be proud of me for changing my ways" However, my last boyfriend (who at least for a while was convinved we'd get married) was terribly disappointed that I had already been down that road...it was a big issue for him...I'm not sure how much it mattered to him that the deed was done before I was a believer. So...when I hear you guys talking about how you're saving yourselves, I dig it that your sharing this stuff, but don't really relate. It makes it harder to resist the temptation when your status doesn't change if you were to cave...maybe not harder to resist...but certainly the incentive is lower. Honestly, the times I've been "in the moment" and had to make a decision, and refrained...it's been largely because of the actual physical risks associated with having sex....not the "sin" part of it. Thoughts on that? My we're being candid here, aren't we?

Don't know how this adds to the discussion, perhaps another perspective, however irrelevant. Since my earliest memory I've considered myself a Christian & I even signed one of those 'True Love Waits' things when I was about 14 or 15 (still have it in an old wallet). I never thought any differently that I would have premarital sex, until I finally met someone in my mid-twenties. He wasn't a virgin, but never once pressured me. After about a year, I was the one who made the push to get physical & we did after some insistence on my part. But even now, I feel absolutely no guilt or shame about this. I love/loved him & have had no other lovers since that time nor do I particularly want one. I just can't imagine wanting anyone else.
So what's wrong with me?

hmmm... thoughts on how to resist when it "doesn't matter" anymore. hard to say, since i can't relate either... but my thought is that to resist is a manner of guarding your heart. what you are "saving" may not be for your potential mate at this point, but instead for yourself and for your emotional well-being. ultimately it's not just a single act that you can forget about and go on with your daily life; it's connected to emotion and worth and love and all the things they don't let on about on skinemax.

"anon", i don't think there's anything wrong with not feeling guilt or shame... there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. but not feeling guilt or shame is different than not thinking you have sinned, isn't it? also [and i'm presuming here] i'm guessing that this made your parting that much more painful... see first paragraph.

"but not feeling guilt or shame is different than not thinking you have sinned, isn't it?"

huh, that's profound & i don't think many people look at it like that. you're so insightful, m.

*snort* at steve's "wood" comment.

and jessi/ls, i think that's terrible your ex couldn't see past, well, your past. :( had he done nothing in his lif that he could be counted completely blameless? (btw, hopped over to your blog yesterday & very much enjoyed what i read.)

meegs, kudos on the "penis emergency". that's some wit. ;)

yup. insightful. that's me...

btw: i know it was sort of a joke, but the "wood" comment proves what exactly? just because you can't SEE the physiological changes, doesn't mean women aren't randy too.

also note that the terms "worse/harder" and "different" are not interchangable.

anyone? anymore thoughts? on anything?

i have one more thought. why the heck do we say we 'lose our virginity'? it ain't lost; i should hope most people know where they 'lost' it (unless you're completely incapacitated at the time you misplace it).
not really meaning to be flip here, but it's always made me wonder. hmmmm...

from Wes Anderson's 1998 film: "Rushmore" in which a prep school student (Max) falls in love with the 1st grade teacher (Miss Cross)...one of my favorite lines about sex.

Miss Cross: (coldly) What do you really think is going to happen between us? Do you think we're going to have sex?

Max: That's kind of a cheap way to put it.

Miss Cross: (frankly) Not if you've ever fucked before it isn't.

I wish that I would have had friends like you guys who were willing to share their concerns and real feelings about this.

I got married at 19 almost 6 years ago. My husband is the only man that I have held hands with, kissed, had sex with...

I too thought about what sex would be like, heck I thought about what kissing was like. I didn't have my first kiss until I was in college and believe me, I thought I was the only one. I think it is a natural thing to be concerned, or even hopeful about the coming day when you finally get to have sex!

It is a lonely place to be...wondering if someone will EVER love me. Wondering if I will be a good kisser, sexual partner, wondering if someone will accept me and my body just the way it is??? The way that feels is still fresh on my mind.

I hated it when people whould say " oh you'll be the first one married because you have waited so long." I wanted to tell them to shut up. I didn't like being alone. But I was convinced that God had someone for me. And He did.

Like I said, I was a virgin when I got married, but my husband was not. He did however stop and get back on track with the Lord a few months before we met. I will be totally honest, it was hard at first wondering if he ever thought about the others. Wondering if he would be satisfied with me - afterall I had never done it before!!

But let me encourage those who have had sex, it meant the world to be that my husband, before he knew me, decided to save himself from that moment on for me. We have been able to move passed those initial uncomfortable feelings about sex. It is a really personal thing. We have a wonderful relationship and I am glad that I waited for him. I would wait 20 years longer knowing what I know now.

Sex is great. It is normal to think about what it might be like. I think that we must gaurd our hearts to not lust and have impure thoughts towards another. And I think that we shouldn't entice men by the way we dress and then say, "oh I'm saving myself for marriage" but that's another thing all together I guess.

Anyway, I am rambling and I don't know if I said what I wanted to. Hang in there...it's worth the effort it takes to wait...I hope I'm not sounding like Ron and Barb!!!

Carry on with the sex talk...

geoff - the word fuck doesn't ALWAYS have to be quoted at every available opportunity...

mdog, I'm not sure if you really understood what I was talking about. The wood comment was jokingly, but the idea I was trying to get across is that men have a lot of testosterone in them, and that is the "sex chemical", simply put. That doesn't mean that women think about it any more or less than men, it's just that the "sex chemical" makes us want to express it more than women. Does that make sense? Read up on steroid use... yes, it makes things shrink, but it increases sex drive exponentially. Notice I said drive, not thought. I hope that cleared some things up.

Dear Anonymous:.... Yes, you do sound kind of like Ron and Barb...it's a broken record from married people....Just Wait; Married Sex is Great! I bet some crappy chrisitan t-shirt company has already printed that one. Sorry to sound rude...it's just an old story, true as it may be. But I do appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experience on the topic, particularly how your husband re-established his no-sex rules and that you appreciated that.

hehe.. good discussion here! leave it to mdoogs to bring it up ;O

just a thought from a biology teacher here... males produce millions of sperm per day, females mature one egg per month. the same hormones are involved in both sexes, but the "drive" to release sperm cannot be compared to the female drive for pleasure.

on another note, a close friend of mine who had been sexually active before walking the christian lifestyle made a choice to save herself for marriage. she testifies that God restored her physical virginity.. she actually bled on their wedding night (hope that's not tmi ;D). it meant everything to her that she was "pure" before the Lord and her husband (who was a virgin).

on a personal note, what does everyone consider "virginity"??? ;D

but as a biology teacher, you must also realize that that is not a definitive sign of 'physical' virginity? it's a myth that every woman bleeds her first time.

I'm sorry...I think that's silly. God restored her physical virginity? That's like...ok, nevermind...whatever I'm going to come up with here is going to be offensive and rude, I'm sure, so I'll keep it to myself. But I've heard people say that before...that they are "sure" that God "restored" their physical virginity. I mean...does He do that for everyone? Everyone who repents? Everyone who is REALLY REALLY sorry??? And what about tampons? Geez.

Lemonscarlet: sorry to sound like a broken record. That was not my intention. But I don't really have anything else to offer but my story. Good luck with everything and God bless.

just sharing is all :D

I think the sex drives are probably about the same between guys and girls... but the tight t-shirts the cute girls wear don't help either XD

Hey - good good discussion everybody.

I want to comment on something angie said earlier - about not having been truly tested as far as "jumping the bones" of a guy she's attracted to... I totally hear you on that. I grew up in a "Christian home" and sort of assumed that I was on my way to a nomination to the sainthood as far as virginity was concerned... (though my thought life was not at all virginal). I somehow made it to the age of 32 without my virginal state being truly threatened.

Then, whammo... a guy comes along, with gleaming white teeth, tall dark and handsome... and wanting a bit more than a chaste kiss goodnight. Yeah, a LOT more. So suddenly... my ideas about purity were challenged, and I found myself thinking things like, "who really cares at this point if I'm a virgin??! I mean, a 32 year old virgin is kind of pathetic, really..." and "what are the odds of me finding a guy that's still a virgin in my age bracket??" I was THIS close to throwing the whole virginal life plan (or whatever the crap you want to call it) in the garbage can. The only things that kept me from it were these: I had already stated to the man in question that I believed in staying a virgin until marriage, and I also knew the guy didn't love me. But even then, I struggled!

People, the guy wanted to take me on a whirlwind weekend bed & breakfast getaway. I had never been so tempted by ANYTHING in my life before. And me being such a pious, good little Christian girl! I think part of the reason it was soooo tempting was the thought life that I've had concerning sex over the years... if my thoughts had been more "reined in" so to speak, my temptation would probably have been lessened. Which brings me to this: if I HAD gone and had sex, would the sin have been "worse" than all the times I had imagined it over the course of my life?

No. I don't think so.

Now, I'm more than glad that I never went through with the actual physical act - but I don't fancy that I'm some kind of saint because I didn't. I was certainly capable of doing the deed. I am more aware now of my need for God's grace in this (and every other) area of my life.

And my thought life? It's better. Not perfect whatsoever. I'm leaning on God, that's all I can do. The desire isn't going to magically go away, and who's to say I will ever actually have sex? It isn't promised. It's not in the Constitution, or in Scripture anywhere. Life is hard. But God is beautiful.


my two and a half cents.

"virginal life plan"... i like it. catchy.

the power of temptation is amazing [in a horrible way] isn't it? thank you for sharing your thoughts, struggles, and wisdom here. it is appreciated, as are all previous and future comments.

"Life is hard. But God is beautiful."

indeed.

LOVE what you said, happs!